Epilogue Transcript

This is a radio transcript. It may still contain typos and errors.

This is The 13th Step. I’m Lauren Chooljian, and the episode you’re about to hear – the epilogue – it was not in our original plan. We were all pretty confident that we were gonna wrap things up in six episodes. 

But that all changed. Because I had a conversation recently that I really wasn’t expecting to have. But I’m really glad I did.

One of the last things I had to do before we published was reach out to all my sources. To let them know the podcast was coming so they could prepare. 

And when I reached out to Employee A, she texted back and said she wanted to talk. 

Employee A, you’ll remember, used to work for Eric Spofford at Granite Recovery Centers. 

The first time she and I talked was December of 2020. A lifetime ago. That’s when she told me that her boss Eric sent her sexually explicit messages on Snapchat. And that he sexually assaulted her in his office in the middle of the workday. 

[Lauren Chooljian] Did you want that to happen?

[Employee A] No… but I also didn’t know how to… tell him… no.

I corroborated what Employee A told me with other sources. But Eric denies that it happened.

I first published a story about Employee A in March of 2022. And since then, we’ve been in touch on and off. But it would totally make sense if she never wanted to talk to me again. First of all, Eric’s lawyers have made life hard for her. They’ve sent her intimidating letters threatening to sue her.

Also, sexual assault and harrassment are traumatic. For Employee A, and other sources in this podcast, having to be reminded of that trauma every time they see my name pop up on their phone… that’s really rough.

That’s why it was so remarkable that just a few weeks before we put out this podcast, Employee A came to the NHPR newsroom. We sat down together in a studio and we caught up.

[Lauren Chooljian] When you and I talked the first… first time, um… we only talked about, like, this one bad thing that happened to you. And I was just wondering, is there anything you want people to know… // what should people know about you? 

[Employee A] Um, I mean, I grew up in a small town in New Hampshire with my younger sister, and we went through life with an alcoholic mom, and we built our connection based off of… based off of that, pretty much. 

[Lauren Chooljian] Are you still close with your sister? 

[Employee A] Oh, yeah. // And she just had a baby, and she's the most precious thing on the planet. //

[Lauren Chooljian] Oh, that's so fun – Is this your first niece or nephew? 

[Employee A] First niece, yeah. 

[Lauren Chooljian] Oh, my God. It's the best. 

[Employee A] Yeah.

[Lauren Chooljian] That's the best!

[Employee A] She’s just full of snuggles, and she… she's so cute. She came out perfect. //

[Lauren Chooljian] Do you want to share anything about your work or anything else? 

[Employee A] Um… not really.

[Lauren Chooljian] OK.

[Employee A] Only because of everything. 

[Lauren Chooljian] Gotcha. 

[Employee A] Yeah. //

…

[Lauren Chooljian] Let's talk about when the story first came out. 

[Employee A] Yeah. 

[Lauren Chooljian] What was that like? Where were you when you heard it? 

[Employee A] Um… I was just at home listening to it. Um, the biggest thing was that when I got to work, everyone heard it // But it was a sense of, like, freedom in a sense, like that it's out there. Like…

[Lauren Chooljian] Yeah, say more about that. 

[Employee A]  It's just, like, I just don't want him to be able to do this to anybody else, or at least the women out there to know that, like, that's what he does, you know? And that's all I want is for people to know. I don't think that he should be in the recovery field, like, and prey on people who are vulnerable in any… any sense of the way, you know?

Employee A told me that hearing that another woman – the one we call Elizabeth – had received really similar Snapchats from Eric, that was incredibly powerful for her. 

I mentioned in episode two that Eric denies any of this ever happened. In the lawsuit, he says that Employee A and Elizabeth are dishonest, unreliable, and motivated to harm his reputation. 

Employee A says she doesn’t know Elizabeth. But she says the similarities in their stories reinforce their credibility. 

[Employee A] The fact that we say pretty much the same exact thing is… is crazy. And that's, like, I'm glad that I don't know them and I don't – I wouldn't even be able to recognize them because if anything did go further, like, I don't… I don't know who these people are. Like, you can't tell me that I made up this story with this girl who I don't know, you know?

[Lauren Chooljian] Mmhmm…

[Employee A]  Um, so it was… That part was super powerful for me. And the fact that, like… But also I felt terrible because I, like… I don't want that stuff to happen to anybody else, you know? I felt bad for the other women and all of that stuff who… who have been living with that for so long, too. //

[Lauren Chooljian] And when we first talked, you had said, “I'm okay being recorded, but I don't want my name used,” which is obviously what we're doing right now. Can you walk me through why that was your decision? 

[Employee A] Um… so… it actually… One. I didn't realize how recognizable – recognizable my voice was. 

[Lauren Chooljian] Really? 

[Employee A] But that's okay. But regardless, like, my name was never put out there, and yet, he knew exactly who was on the recordings, you know? Which – // how is it that the first names that pop into your head are us… you know? Like, if… if none of this is true or whatever he says, how is it that our names are popping up first in your… in your mind? //

[Lauren Chooljian] Were you nervous when you realized how recognizable your voice was?

[Employee A] For like a second, but then I was like, eh, whatever. It is what it is. (laughs)

[Lauren Chooljian] I feel like your vibe is very like… it is what it is. 

[Employee A] Yeah… yeah. (laughs)

[Lauren Chooljian] I think that's serving you well in this situation. (laughs)

[Employee A] Yeah. (laughs) 

[Lauren Chooljian] Um.. and so… // The day the story came out we talked on the… Well, it was the day you got the letter that we talked. And you said that people had said some kind of empowering, nice things to you after the story came out. Do you remember that? What did they say? 

[Employee A] Just the fact that, like, how strong I was, how strong all of us were, and // um… I had text messages from people who I worked with in the past that… would text me and say, “Finally. It's finally… it's out. Finally somebody saying something” and all of that stuff. So that felt good, but at the same time, like, I didn't know where this was going to go, so I didn't want… I didn't want too much conversation around it, but with them, but it felt good to get the… the text messages and all of that stuff, yeah. 

[Lauren Chooljian] Were you proud of yourself?

[Employee A] Yeah. Yeah. I was… Like I said, I didn't… I didn't necessarily know where this was going to go. Like, for all I knew, it was going to go nowhere because that's what I know from the past… So, yeah, it was… I was proud of all of us, not just myself.

What she knows from the past. I wasn’t the first person to hear Employee A’s story. 

There are two big moments that Employee A defines as the times she already came forward. She told people who she thought could help her… and then… nothing. 

The way she describes it is the times her story got pushed to the back burner. 

[Lauren Chooljian] Yeah. Tell me about the other times, the times where it felt like it got pushed to the back burner. 

[Employee A] Yeah. So, I mean, I spoke with the feds at one point. // When I was working in Manchester, not with Eric, they actually came to me and asked me to talk to them. So I'm like, OK. So I went to their building and they, at first, asked me all kinds of questions about peop – like, they knew everything. And I'm like, “Wait, what is this actually about,” you know? And she's like, “Well, you can… you can just tell me everything.” So I did.

Now, this was fascinating to me on so many levels. 

Employee A says she told an FBI agent about what happened in Eric’s office. The Snapchats. Everything. I was able to corroborate this with a friend Employee A told about this meeting.

And the FBI agent, Employee A says, didn’t seem surprised by her story. The agent told Employee A, “You’re not the first person to share something like that with us.”

But Employee A says the agent seemed more interested in financial stuff. Things Employee A says she really didn’t have details about.

[Employee A] And then she's like, “Alright, well, we'll be in contact with you and blah, blah, blah.” She called me once more and then, I just stopped hearing from them. And I called her back and I was like, “So is anything else going to happen or anything like that?” And she's like, “Oh, you won't be hearing from us again.” I'm like, “OK, well, that's cool that I just opened up to you and you're not doing anything about it.” She's like, “Well, the other stuff that you say is more of a police matter.” Like, right, but that's the problem, right? It's like… “You are the police and you're pushing me aside, so…”

I asked the FBI about this. Employee A says this meeting took place in 2019 in Bedford, New Hampshire. But the FBI press office told me they can’t confirm or deny that there was any investigation into Granite Recovery Centers or Eric. 

And that last thing Employee A says – “you are the police” – I’ve thought so much about that. The FBI wouldn’t likely have jurisdiction over what happened between Employee A and Eric. 

But still, this stuck with Employee A. She told someone official. And powerful. And nothing happened. 

She still came forward one other time, about a year later. I’d heard about this one before.

[Lauren Chooljian] So another situation I think you told me about… one of the times that it got pushed to the back burner was there was an attempt for a class action lawsuit. Is that right? Do you remember? What details can you share about that? 

[Employee A] There was another girl who basically came to me and said, “I need some strong women to come forward with me.” And I was like, “OK, why not?” Like, I've never, like… It's not even necessarily about the class action lawsuit. Like, I don't care about the money. I don't care about any of that. Like, I would – Like, I'm doing this for you for… for free. I'm telling you my story for free. I don't care about any of that stuff. But she was like, “Yeah, we're we're gonna – my lawyers are set up to do whatever they need to do.” And I was like, “OK.” And she's like, “My lawyer will call you.” And then never heard anything ever from her lawyers. And I'm like, “OK…” And I kept talking to her about it and then come to find out that… through the grapevine that Eric ended up just paying her off and kind of letting it go.

Employee A is talking about Employee B. You might remember this story from episode two. 

Employee B accused Eric of sexual assault. She told multiple people at Granite Recovery Centers about it. And after that, Eric told the HR director that he had signed a paid settlement with Employee B.

This was part of why a bunch of people quit GRC in the spring of 2020. 

So there Employee A was. She’d told the FBI. She’d almost joined a class action lawsuit. 

And then, finally, she told me. 

As we now know, there were consequences for coming forward to me. This was a part of Employee A’s experience that I was especially curious to hear about.

We’d only talked a little in the past year. So I wanted to know what it was like for her to face the legal retaliation from Eric, starting a day after my original story was published. The day the litigation hold letters started flying.

[Employee A] So the first letter I got, like, I don't know how to read any of that stuff. Like, it's all legal mumbo jumbo that I have no idea how to read it. So the first thing – I just wanted somebody to tell me what, what it said before I, like, freaked out about it. But also it had stuff to do with like Florida court and all this other stuff that he was trying to, like, sneak in there and, like, most of the people were like, “What the heck?” Like, this is literally just to scare you. Like, that's all it is. 

[Lauren Chooljian] You knew that, like, right away?

[Employee A]  Yeah. And um, and I was at that point, I was just done with letting him scare me, you know? Like, he doesn't scare me now, you know. He doesn't intimidate me or anything like that. So, I… I mean, I got a couple other letters also after that, and it was just like one after another of… And I just sent them off to a lawyer that was nice enough to just kind of oversee everything for me… And he just kept saying like, “Listen, like, this is literally just to scare you. It's… I mean, do what the letter says, save everything for now. But, like, he's just trying to spook you into thinking that something bad's going to happen.” He's like, “But I will not let anything bad happen.” I'm like, “OK, cool.”

[Lauren Chooljian] That must have felt good. 

[Employee A]  Yeah, yeah. //

[Lauren Chooljian] The letter that you got that stuck with me the most was the one where they demanded that you give them your home address so that they – and if you didn't, they would serve you at work. Do you remember that? 

[Employee A] Yeah, yeah.

[Lauren Chooljian] What did that feel like to read? 

[Employee A] Um, well, one, I knew I wasn't going to give them my home address because I think that letter came right after whatever happened to you happened.

She’s talking about the vandalism at my house.

[Employee A] So I'm like, “OK, well, that's just not going to happen…” And so, I went to a supervisor at work and I was like, “Just so you know, this is –” she already knew about the story. So I was like, “Just so you know, this is what's happening, blah, blah, blah.” And everyone was like, “Yeah, let them come here. I don't care. Let ‘em do it.” I'm like, “OK, cool. Just as long as we're all out there in the open, we're good.”

31:40 [Lauren Chooljian] That one also had a – they had, like, an email they wanted you to copy/paste to me. Do you remember this? Where it’s, like, they wrote your name and it was like, “My name is… and I'm Employee A” and it was basically like a copy paste for you to send to me to say, “Everything I said wasn't true.”

[Employee A] Correct. Yeah. 

[Lauren Chooljian] I mean, that was wild for me to see, I have to say. It was just like… the boldness of it. Yeah. I don't know if anything in that –

[Employee A] I think the most interesting part of all of those letters is every single one of them came to my work email. I think he purposely – He… he knows how to, like, scare people and make people nervous. So I think him even just sending that stuff to my work email, not my personal email – which has been the same personal email since I worked for him – was probably the most interesting part of everything. It’s like, you know that I'm sitting here at work and that pops up, you know? // I would just, I would see the email pop up and then I would go into like a finance office so that I could just read it. (laughs) And I'm like, “OK.” And then, my supervisor would come in and we'd chat about it, and then I'd go back to work and all is good. (laughs)

[Lauren Chooljian] It sounds like you have a really supportive, like, friend and work network. 

[Employee A] Yeah. Yeah. 

[Lauren Chooljian] Has your sister been helpful too? 

[Employee A] Oh, yeah. She's. She's great. 

[Lauren Chooljian] That’s good. That really helps.

[Employee A] I try not to, like, bombard her with all of this because, like, I mean, she hears, she's heard about it in the past, you know. But, I mean, every time that something would pop up, she would send it to me and she'd be like, “It's okay. Everything's fine.” I'm like, “OK.”

[Lauren Chooljian] That must help. 

[Employee A]  Yeah, it does. //

[Lauren Chooljian] So… we've talked a lot about the letters. Um, one thing I wanted to ask you about was when you heard about what happened at my house. //

[Employee A] Mmhmm… That actually probably out of everything that happened, that probably scared me the most because I live by myself // and I was just like, “wow.” Like, he knows where… where I lived, you know, because I lived there, when I worked there for – worked for him. So I was… there was quite a bit of, like, paranoia almost to begin with when that happened. 

[Lauren Chooljian] So we still don't know who did it. So I just wanted to say that that we're still waiting to see if there are any arrests or anything like that. Um, but what was it about it that made you scared? And I'm sorry. 

[Employee A]  No, don't. You don't have to be sorry. 

[Lauren Chooljian] I know. I just. That was my, one of my first thoughts was that… what was that going to be like for you all to learn? It was hard to text you and be like, “So guess what…?” 

[Employee A]  And realistically, like, who knows, maybe it is completely random. It doesn't seem like that? However, I just kept having to say to myself like, “OK, maybe… maybe it's something else. Maybe, maybe he has nothing to do with it,” you know?

[Lauren Chooljian] Because it made you feel safer. 

[Employee A] Correct. Yeah, but at the same time, I was like, I know who Eric's connected with and all of that stuff. Like, not so great people. And it… I was like, well, I don't live in the safest area anyway, right? So it would have been very easy for… for me to be a target living by myself with nobody else, you know. But the longer it happened, the less of that scariness happened, too. 

[Lauren Chooljian] I hear that.

[Employee A] Like OK, there actually are just cars driving on the road. And I'm OK. I'm fine. 

To be clear, Eric has said he was, quote, “completely uninvolved” in the vandalism and that he doesn’t condone it. But he also said that “perhaps” someone, quote, “felt compelled to do these acts in a misguided attempt to defend me.”

…

[Lauren Chooljian] Was there ever a moment where you regretted coming forward? 

[Employee A]  No. No. I mean, I've come forward so many times before that this just felt like something that had to happen. Eventually, me telling this would go somewhere. So no, I didn't regret it. // I'm like done being nervous about all of this. Like, I'm done making – having him make me nervous. It's just like… He just likes to gaslight people and it works, and I'm just done letting it work, pretty much.

[Music in]

[Lauren Chooljian] For all the women who didn't come forward or even in other situations where they've been sexually assaulted or harassed and it wasn't their boss or there wasn't their sponsor, would you have any advice of someone who's like on the fence about coming forward or not, given how much you've faced after coming forward? 

[Employee A] Um… I think coming forward would be the best possible thing. And… and I think me being persistent in coming forward is probably the best thing too, is, unfortunately, not everyone's going to believe you and not everyone's going to listen. But the more people you tell, the more likely it is to come out, especially if you find one person who's, like, passionate in finding the truth. So, yeah.  

[Lauren Chooljian] Is there any, like, definition of justice for you in this situation? 

[Employee A] Just the fact that it's out there, I think is… is justice in itself. The more people who know about it is… is better.

[Music up and out]

[Music in]

The 13th Step is reported and produced by me, Lauren Chooljian.

And this is our last episode – unless something else happens you should know about… But for now, I want to thank you for listening, for coming along on this wild journey with us. 

Reporting this story has been an experience like no other. And I’ve been so fortunate to be part of an incredibly strong and thoughtful team. 

Jason Moon contributed reporting. He wrote the music you hear in this show and he mixed all the episodes.

Alison MacAdam is our editor. 

Additional editing from Senior Editor Katie Colaneri and News Director Dan Barrick. 

Fact-checking by Dania Suleman.

Sara Plourde created our artwork and our website 13thsteppodcast.org. That’s the number 13.

Sigmund Schutz is our lawyer. And we also had support from some of his brilliant colleagues: Jonathan Mermin, Simon Brown, and Paul Greenberg. 

NHPR’s Director of Podcasts is Rebecca Lavoie. 

And special thanks to Casey McDermott, Taylor Quimby, Ariana Lyke, Max Green, Ilya Marritz, Jim Schachter, William Chapman, Patrick Smith, Tony Arnold, Barbara Van Woerkom, Bruce Shapiro, Kate Howard, Laura Ellis, and Carrie Johnson.

And also, there have been some incredible journalists who were so generous with their time and their insights about reporting on sexual misconduct. So a special shout-out to Sacha Pfeiffer, Amy Brittain, Rebecca Corbett, and Tricia Nadolny.

And a huge thank you, of course, to my family. 

This reporting was supported by the Fund for Investigative Journalists.

The 13th Step is a production of the Document team at New Hampshire Public Radio.

[Music up and out]